#5: "Cultivate Connection And Shared Moments" - Thibaut Pugin

~ This transcript is automatically generated so may contain some errors ~

I think the main difference between us and a set of algorithms and data is something akin to emotion. Probably one of the biggest and the most important of these emotions is connection. Um, so how do you See the human, see the experience of being human through all the data.

That is a fantastic tool and a fantastic language. Um, but there is something around what's the essence of who we are and what we're trying to do.

Welcome to Statements of Intent. In this 20 minute episode, we're addressing how e commerce has lost sight of the people at its very heart. You, the customer. It's a chat that's optimistic, it's casual, it's probably slightly ranty in places, but that's okay. But it's a place where I talk to senior e commerce marketers.

And share their statement of how they're looking to change the status quo of e commerce, adding more care, being more considerate to those very people that they're selling to the customer. I'm your host, David Monheim, the founder of Made with Intent. And we're going to jump right into it. Have fun

Hello everybody.

And welcome to Stateless in 10. I'm your host, David Mantheim, and we are here with the gorgeously, very full bodied hair man himself, Thibaut Pujan, uh, VP of engineering over at Gusto. Thibaut, how are you doing today? Thibaut Pujan

I'm doing great. Looking forward to the end of the year and to this conversation.

Thank you for having me.

I feel very welcome. We're very near Christmas, so this will come out after Christmas, but what are you doing over Christmas? What are your plans? Are you staying in London?

Uh, no, we're not. So the kids have three weeks of holiday, so we have to figure out what to do with the kids.

Uh, I come from the Alps, so we usually go back skiing for a week, um, and then we'll meet some family for another week and then try to dispatch the kids after that.

Three weeks of holiday. What on earth are you going to do? That sounds Beautiful and messy.

It is exactly that. Like life itself.

Ha ha, well Teeba, I know you love conversations that are slightly more deep in nature.

And I think that when I'm asking people to talk about their statements of intent they're They're guiding principle for how customers should be treated. You spoke to me about cultivating a sense of connection and creating some shared moments. And for me, that sounds equally as deep and thoughtful. Uh, could you talk to us about that?

What does cultivate connection and shared moments mean? Why is that your guiding principle?

I think that the question is almost what makes us human. Um, so if we're going deep right away, um, we live in an age and an era where there is a lot of data around a lot of algorithms that rule our life, that understand who we are. And we may soon enough understand that we're not much more than advanced algorithms.

Um, And that's okay. But for the time being, I think the main difference between us and a set of algorithms and data is something akin to emotion. Probably one of the biggest and the most important of these emotions is connection. Um, so how do you See the human, see the experience of being human through all the data.

That is a fantastic tool and a fantastic language. Um, but there is something around what's the essence of who we are and what we're trying to do. So that's probably a little bit deep for a commercial statement, but I think it is still a guiding principle for. How you're supposed to create product and create experiences and actually just put your mark onto the world.

I mean, obviously I love it having written the person in personalization. You know, I empathize with that as a statement.

Do you feel as though Thibaut, that there are odds with each other though? Data defining like a set of very predictable, repeatable states that is potentially inhuman compared to the more empathetic connection state that you're talking about.

Do you feel as though. They're at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Uh, they're complementary. It's the same as saying that you do arts or you do sciences. I think the best people do both, right? And so you can't just choose one and then accept that that's the way the world works. I think these are, these are tools that you use, or these are ways of thinking that you apply.

And they're not even necessarily In a position, there's a natural tension and there's a easy tendency to slip into one at the expense of the other. But it's one of these things where, uh, you know, Jim Collins talks about the fabulous and for great companies or great organization, they will manage some tensions between things.

You can't manage all the tensions. Sometimes you just choose one side. Um, but I think this is one of the things where you do have to manage the tension between understanding what makes us human fundamentally and. The tools and the wonderful ability of, uh, of the data that we have today, right? We can understand things we did not understand before.

We can predict things we couldn't predict before. And it is clearly the way the world works.

Do you see one as being easier to do than the other? I do personally. I find one of those approaches being easier than the other. And therefore people revert to that approach more often than not.

I suspect you talk about the data and understanding algorithms.

I think it's, it's a skill that you can learn. Um, and it's, it can be a little bit soulless. You can just learn it as a technique as a tool. Um, I don't think you can learn to relate to others in the same way. I think it will take a lot more. Judgment, intuition, um, and exploration and eventually will be a lot more personal.

It's something that's less codifiable, I guess, um, and that will be more unique, which is, I still, you can, I still think you can learn it, but it will be tempting to say there is a surefire way to learn, to become better algorithms and what the impact of that is. It's less easy with. How do you create a shared connection?

It's interesting. I, I, I don't know whether I agree so much. I find that data can be automated and it's almost like, there you go, Mr. or Mrs. machine, or, you know, non gender specific machine, go away and sort it out. Whereas relationships, dude, relationships are hard and they're exponentially harder when there's a human and a screen relationship.

You know, how you communicate that, how you try and demonstrate levels of empathy, I think is on a far greater level of difficulty than something that you can automate and just hand over to a machine. Sorry, I'm not being disparaging of that thing and all the data out there, but I just find, well personally anyway, as being probably slightly more analytical, I find relationships extremely difficult.

Do you agree or not? Do you feel like one being automated makes it infinitely easier?

I don't know that I agree, no. I think they're a different nature and I definitely went into, you know, math and sciences because I wanted to have that kind of certainty. And I really appreciate the fact that, you know, you know what to expect. Right? And there is something around. exploring a language that helps you break down things and predict with a certain degree of, I think certainty is the word, um, as opposed to navigating relationship is a lot around judgment, around intuition, around what to do, when to do the right thing.

And there's, it's much harder to codify, um, that being said. I think we know the core things like you have to be curious. You have to want to get to know others. You have to want the best for others and like the principle of how to navigate good relationships. I don't think or abstract them probably something that we've thought about it longer than we've thought about algorithms to be honest.

So I think you can still learn that there's no one that cannot. Say, look, I want to get better at managing and creating good relationships. And where you can't go to the fundamentals and say, focus on that. I don't think there's anyone that can't do that. I

agree, but put that in a commercial context. Do you still, do you still apply that same rule?

Do you think commercially people can still learn about relationships as easily as say an individual can?

Yes, I think so. I think it comes down to focusing on the customer largely. It comes down to, well, who is my customer? What do they want and how do I create that future for them? How do like, what's the relationship that I have with my customer?

What's the relationship that my product has my customer.

And that's where it goes to a moment that translates to creating experiences, right? So how do you create and cultivate those experiences and shared moments? That's really just. Thinking about that customer, what do they want? Are you meeting them where they are, but also sometimes anticipating their needs?

Could you, could you

put that, like, add a bit more color to that? Like, I mean, it sounds great in theory and it sounds like customer centricity, you know, it's the word of the 2000s, the 2010s, but what does that look like in real life? So maybe at Gusto, how does, how does that, those values translate over into something that's.

Slightly more tangible and more real or something that I can understand Maybe with my small small brain. I

don't know about that, but um, but I can try Um, so first of all, maybe it's good to explain what gusto is in in 30 seconds It's very short as a as a customer. You're looking at a number of recipes online delicious recipes Uh, there's probably about a hundred of them or so They change every week you select them on an app and then next week or the week after or the week after You get a box Um, and you can make a box with exactly the ingredients that you need an easy to make recipe, and they're usually very, very delicious, and you have no food waste, essentially, and that's a subscription product.

So that's, that's essentially what goes does in a nutshell. Now, how do we, how do we try to live into that intention at Gusto? I'd say it starts with really the value proposition of what gusto is. And we've talked to our customer time and time and time again. And the thing that comes back around how people want to relate to food is they want food to be something that is healthy.

They want some food to be like a good experience, but really the thing that comes back is they want to have that variety, you know, there's times where they want to. Explore a little bit of a different cuisine. There are times where food is just about being a bit healthier. There's times where it's about being more indulgent.

Um, and really everyone relates to food is navigating a set of different experiences, which are slightly different for everyone. No, people will have food as a family at the table. Some people will have it in, you know, more on the go, but they won't vary. And so the first thing that we've done is really to say we focus on creating a lot of different aspects of a lot of different recipes so that everyone has enough to choose from and can every week create a box with everything they want.

And then I can go a little bit more into it, but basically what that means is for us, it means navigating the paradox of choice, like, like Netflix would have, right. Where you have lots of things to navigate and that experience can become really complicated. So we'd say that's one of the main aspects of our customer centricity.

The other one is really just thinking about how to create a great experience for the customer. Um, and I think here. Amazon has probably done it better than most, where it's about where are customers unhappy? Um, what do they want and whether it's their customer care experience, whether it's the freshness of the product, whether it is the price, what do they care most about?

And then focus on that and focus on that and focus on that. So these are probably the two ways to think about it is value proposition of RAD and a great experience.

Yeah, I, I really like that delineation. I feel as though like what you're talking about in the first subset is, is, is appreciation. An appreciation that people are different.

An appreciation that people will have different tastes, that they evolve over time, that they can change week to week, and how do you satisfy that, uh, that need for customers. Is that right? Would you say, would you say that's accurate, that term appreciation? Or would you use something else?

I think it's, it's a good word. So eventually we don't use that word internally. Um, but I think the principle stays

there. Thank you.

I think it's, it's, it's the, it's a different way of saying the same thing around, you know, intent of trying to understand what do people really want? That curiosity, that, that sense of, am I solving a problem for the customer?

Or am I pushing something to them? Um, and there's nothing inherently wrong with pushing something, but I think you still have to create, like, stay with the curiosity of what is the problem that they have, what is the aspiration that they have. Um, so yeah, appreciation for what kind of experience they're going through and what kind of emotions they're having, I guess.

Yeah,

really difficult to To do that, what, so in, in real life, aside from offering a variety of choices and maybe refining those choices to avoid that paradox of choice. So if I'm a vegetarian, you're going to appreciate that I'm a vegetarian, uh, and only offer me choices applicable to my, you know, my appreciation.

Are there any other examples or moments that you can give where you create connection or where, or you share a moment with a customer? Something that you're really proud of, perhaps.

Um, there are definitely a few. Um, so if I, if I go back to the split between, you know, the value proposition and the paradox of choice, I'm going to leave that to the side for a second.

And I'm going to go to the great experience. One of the things that we know customer really care about is if there is a problem with their box. So worst case scenario is the box doesn't arrive. That's a really bad experience. So we want to be there for the customer when that happens. Um, and it's really hard for us to send a box right away and kind of say, well, we're going to solve it for tonight.

Right? We've seen like many customers who say, look, um, I expect Gusto to arrive during that day. And therefore I'm going to put food on the table tonight for my kids. And if the Gusto box doesn't arrive, like this is a pretty bad experience for me. Um, so we don't know yet how to make sure that if the box doesn't arrive during the day, then that will give you another box during that day.

Well, we can give you a box like as soon as possible. And we've made that the fastest turnaround for the next box that you, that you get basically. Um, and we made the experience of getting the box reimbursed and all the tra la la that goes with this really, really smooth. If you want to talk to someone, you can talk to someone.

If you want to do via the app, you can do it via the app. And so our whole customer care, as soon as you have a problem, we're there with you. And we try to empathize with that experience, I think is an example of something that. Really meets the customer where they have a challenge and an issue. Yeah, I

really, I really liked that.

I was at an event last week, moderating, and there's a chap called Michael Agard. He's a fabulous speaker, been in the CRO space for about 16 years. He spoke all about this. Behavioral science, uh, of disappointment, which so often we try and reinforce positive behaviors in order to convince or persuade a user to take an action.

But what happens when that action doesn't exceed, uh, doesn't match or doesn't exceed their expectations? That is the, the concept of disappointment. In your case, I've not The one use case of not receiving a box on time, how you handle disappointment can be almost as important as, uh, exceeding a level of expectation that a user currently has.

Um, I find that really interesting. So when, when you talk about creating connection and then shared moments, what does this side look like? What does, what do you mean by shared moments?

I think this is a, a good illustration of the, the balance between, you know, the data side and, uh, more creative side. Um, there, there was a good talk by, um, Todd Yellin, the VP of product at, um, Netflix, who explained how they went about trying to understand how people really will go and find a.

Um, find the next movie that you're watching. Um, and in, in the beginning, what they did is they use very much the data side of things. And they say, well, we're going to tag everything. And we're trying to understand what happens. And, um, and then you can create more recommendations and, and probably you're going to increase some of the metrics that you care about, but kind of fast forward that journey quite a lot.

Eventually what they realized is they're probably about three core experiences that are trying to create. And without kind of redoing that talk, if people are. Um, I don't know if any of you guys are curious. They can look at look at them, but you know, two of them might be, um, I have a certain emotion at the moment.

I'm feeling blue or I'm feeling happy and I want to watch a movie that matches my emotion. And by the way, if I'm David, when I'm feeling blue, I want to watch a happy movie with myself when I'm feeling blue. I want to watch a drama like I want to cry my head out, right? So that's, that might be. And so, so, you know, you need to understand that, but you need to also connect to the emotion.

Um, and then there's another. And probably if I look at Netflix today, what feels like the most important experience, which is. We all want to watch the same thing so we can talk about it and we can create some kind of shared connection. Um, and I don't know what kind of game of, I have not watched Game of Thrones, but I'm sure that, you know, a lot of people have watched Game of Thrones and you could start a conversation on this pretty fast.

Um, and there's, there's a lot of these things where we just want to belong, right? We want to have that sense of. We're in it together. Um, so there's that individual experience that's really important, but it also that shared moment. Um, and so it's really looking for those connections. Now, when you think about food, uh, shared moment could be the moment that you're creating around the family at the table, right?

Um, we eat almost every day and none of us have the same desire.

So how do you actually create like a meal that works for everyone? Um, and an example of this is really recently. Change our family options where we realized that parents like spicy food and kids like spicy food less. So we just created recipes where you can decide to put on the sauce or put on a different sauce for the kids and then you kind of share still the experience, but it's, it's slightly personalized, I guess.

Yeah, that's

really nice. I never thought about it like that. I mean, obviously tribalism is how we, uh, well, like natural human instincts, isn't it? But creating community or tribes within, um. We amongst your customer base or, you know, with your customers and their inherent family, I think is really, really difficult to do.

I've never even thought about it like that, being honest with you. Um, because obviously I've focused so much on like the individual person in personalization so that that emotion really resonates with me and those individual preferences, how you suit those, but then going one step beyond that. It's a great relationship, not between just brand and customer, but customer and customer.

Yeah, we hear this all the time. So we do lots of customer interviews and there usually is one person who will kind of choose the menu for the next week or the week after. And the typical thing that you'll hear is, Oh, my, my partner doesn't like fish, but I will always still look at the fish recipes just to see whether there's something I really like.

Whether they're in or out of town doesn't really matter. I will still look at fish and I want to consider that. And, um, that's just one tiny example of people kind of put in their heads the preference that other people have. And I'm trying to say, well, how am I going to choose? It makes recommendations really hard.

Um, but, but it also. It's interesting because you, you really have to empathize with the experiences that folks are having. Otherwise you're never going to solve that problem. And I think that's really exciting, right? To say, okay, well, can you solve that problem for someone? And what does that look like? Um, and internally we have lots of debates around, do you want, is solving that problem to actually give those folks exactly the box that they want?

Or is it that they actually spend some time discussing it? And even that is, is an experience that you have to cater to. And there will be people who just love to browse those recipes and people who just want it to be, no, just tell me, and I want it to be good enough. Well, I

think you're in a fairly unique, um, space in that Gusto is an experience.

It's not just a product. Uh, it's an experience in purchasing the products and it's an experience, you know, in terms of utilizing the product. I think that that's actually quite unique. Um, I put it in terms of when I tend to go to Disney World, booking the, and planning the whole trip is part of the experience that I share with my wife.

And Disney like to make that as humanly complicated as possible. Uh, they have no empathy whatsoever. Uh, and indeed just sharing the experience, you know, they, they also like to make it very complicated. So, to hear that Gusto are doing s Being empathetic towards their customers in that experience, I think is really, really nice, big fan, of course.

Uh, we're out of time. I'll probably leave you on one question though, is when you are feeling blue, what type of films do you like to watch on Netflix? It's

a good question. Uh, probably I'll go to a drama. I recently watched. Um, Manchester by the sea, which is fantastic, but definitely not something to watch if you're, if you want to feel happy, go lucky.

Is that the Colin Farrell one? No, it's with Casey Affleck. And, um, yeah.

Amazing. I'll, uh, I'll put it on my to do list after Ace Ventura and Die Hard. Um, thank you so much. And I'm sure we'll speak again soon. Thank you. Great to see you.

There we have it. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, subscribe and share on whatever platform it is that you're listening to on today. This show comes from the team behind Made With Intent, the customer intent platform for retailers. If you are of course, interested in being more profitable, whilst being more personal.

And please feel free to check us out at madewithintent. ai. Thanks again for listening and joining us on our mission to change how e commerce sees, measures, and treats their customers. I've been your host, David Mannheim. Have a great day.

‍