#11: "Put Yourself In The Customer's Shoes" - Cameron Goldie

~ This transcript is automatically generated so may contain some errors ~

if you're 5 percent everywhere, how'd you be a hundred percent in one place?

It's very difficult.

Welcome to Statements of Intent. In this 20 minute episode, we're addressing how eCommerce has lost sight of the people at its very heart. You, the customer. It's a chat that's optimistic, it's casual, it's probably slightly ranty in places, but that's okay. But it's a place where I talk to senior eCommerce marketers.

And share their statement of how they're looking to change the status quo of eCommerce, adding more care, being more considerate to those very people that they're selling to - the customer. I'm your host, David Mannheim, the founder of Made With Intent. And we're going to jump right into it. Have fun

everyone, hello, welcome to Statements of Intent. I am here with the infamous Cameron Goldie, head of e commerce at Grenade and huge Wolves fan. It didn't take long for us to segue there, did it Cam? It

didn't at all, it didn't at all. How you doing today, buddy? You okay? All good, cheers, but very, uh, very glad it's a Friday, looking forward to the football tomorrow, get a, get a long run in on the weekend, um, I want to say glad we're not playing United, but I, I quite fancy playing you at the moment, especially with the injury list, um, Well,

you've got Newcastle away, haven't you?

So, um, I would prefer to probably play us away, yeah, I think, uh, Yeah, we

can both agree on that one, but, um, No, I'm good. Thanks. I'm excited to be here to be honest, to be a provocative, uh, conversation.

Well, talk to, talk to us about your, your experience. Like what, what matters to you?

So you're currently head of e commerce at Grenade.

What do you, um, I'm sure that they're listening or perhaps they're not, but what do you enjoy about your job? What gives you some level of purpose? What, what really gets you out of bed in the morning?

Some really good questions. I think it's really delivering something that I am proud of and. I, I don't know, am I allowed to swear on the podcast, David?

Yeah, why not? Yeah, I think it's making sure that you're doing it at the heart of, heart of your, I suppose, core values. Cool s*** that excites you. And I think if you can look at that and say, look, Is what I'm doing exciting me? The chances are if you've got that energy, you're truly passionate about it and you believe in it, it will excite other people.

But I think going back to it, it's making sure I feel like it is cool outwardly. It sits within my core values and I'm consistently fitting within those core values as well because I think there's nothing worse than people talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Well, what would you not to get off?

Not to therapize you at all, but what would you say your core values are?

Good question. So I think my number one core value, this is going to go on a slight tangent, is making sure I'm healthy and I'm well and I'm present and I think that actually factors across in my role. So Talk a little bit about and I'm sure we'll get on to my statement, but Having the presence and awareness.

I recently started probably six seven months ago meditating that's massively helped me realize in such an automated world, you know got Elon Musk with Neuralink coming out and everyone's looking at that saying, Whoa, that'd be quite cool. Or, Oh s***, that's a little bit scary. It's having that moment of presence and recognition.

So going back to it, healthy lifestyle, presence and recognition of that, and making sure you keep up with your own values. I think if you can keep that core healthy business relationships, healthy discussions, you can transfer that across the table to say, how do we have the presence in our decision making and make the right decisions?

I think. If you're living a lifestyle outside of work, that's not quite allowing you to have that presence. Yeah. You'll

struggle within work. I love that, man. I mean, so, I mean, your values almost are somewhat representative of your position or that the brand that, that employs you, right, in Grenade. Um, perhaps not the brand that, that owns Grenade.

Uh, are they a chocolate brand? Who, who owns Grenade again?

We are, so we are owned by Mondelēz. And Mondelēz are a sort of snacking and confectionery, um, company. We've got a few sub brands. So sort of the, the likes that you'll hear of and see quite often are Dairy Milk. One of my favourites. Definitely,

got to be number one.

I was, uh, I was at Euston train station the other day, literally last Thursday. And someone stopped me, said, David Mannheim, and it was an old school friend who I hadn't seen in, what, 25 years, how he still recognised me, I've no idea, a guy called Avi Lumber, and he said, David, tell me, do you still like dairy milk?

And I didn't even have to say yes, I just pulled a massive bar of dairy milk out of my pocket.

Oh, you had one on you? Goodness me! Yeah, so

I've been a massive fan of dairy milk, and I've been hoping that Grenade brings out a dairy milk version. Of, of their bars, because I know that the Aria one's probably done, I assume it's done very well.

Massively, and I feel like sort of a space cross cross purpose of that is it's allowed us to speak to a different consumer group, you know, someone's your point, you associate dairy milk more with, um, as I sit around with your family, lazing about watching the telly, you might go for a go for a bite or two, or maybe the whole bar of dairy milk, you know, if I'm being a bit a bit naughty on a Friday or a Saturday night, but that's more of an emotional connection.

I feel like, you know, it's been. Yeah. I think you'll have seen Mondely's and Cadbury's most recent campaign with the 200 years. And you've got these bars that are, you know, your grandparents bars and before them. And it's, it's an iconic brand that's followed us around. And I, I do see, look, those guys job to be done.

It's very much or feels from the outside looking at us. I don't have a fat lot to do with the Cadbury's team. As of now, it's emotion. It's making sure we fit into that emotional, um. Emotional area, whereas grenade, you've got a bit of both really, you know, you're not quite emotional when you're going to the gym, but you feel like you've got a job to be done.

And it's what is the best choice in that moment? You know, do I go for something that's quick, easy and potentially brings me up like this, but then brings me down as quickly as it brought me up? Or do I go for something that does? Suit and resonate with my job to be done in that

moment. That's lovely.

You say jobs to be done a lot.

I'm assured, are you, you're aware of Antony Orwick's jobs to be done framework? Is that, is that what you're continually referencing? Yes,

I think for me, look, job to be done's got to be at the heart of everything. And I feel like, you know, you look at that framework, and you go around the houses with a few conversations, and I apologize, our conversation will definitely become tangency.

But you've got to come back to, you know, what is the core job to be done? What are we aiming to do? And I think you're saying with customers, cause what you can get lost in is multiple jobs to be done, go back to the presence of focus. Well, if you're 5 percent everywhere, how'd you be a hundred percent in one place?

Um, it's very difficult. It's very difficult. So yes, I think job to be done is. Probably goes back to my core values, to

be honest, dude. I find it like absolutely fascinating.

So your, your statement of intent, just for reference is putting yourself in the customer shoes. And usually that is, you know, being candid, a statement that's thrown about a lot, but when you reference it in how you're referencing it, Cameron, which is all about jobs to be done, which is about focus, creating impact, which is about, you said at the beginning of this, cool s*** that excites you, in theory, should excite others as well.

And how it links back to your values. That phrase, put yourself in the customer's shoes, feels so much more expansive when you relate it to the past. Five minutes of what we've been discussing. Can you talk to me about that? What, can you expand on the phrase, put yourself in the customer's

shoes? Totally.

Yes. And I think it's a really, really strong sentiment. And I think that recognition of presence when you're talking to people as well, you know, David, I put myself in your shoes when you're hosting a podcast and what information, how do we flow through this conversation? What information do you want from me?

But also how do I be of benefit to the people that are listening to this podcast? And I think without that 360 sphere of thinking. How am I benefiting other people? You can essentially get into this and you see it with a lot of brands I'll come on to in a second, but you can get into this pleasing yourself mentality.

And I think that's very dangerous. Like, look, if you've got the presence to recognize what the customer needs, it's then asking them what they need and continually asking them what they need. And I think that you look at it, it's become more, more common in business practice. 360 I might think I'm doing something fantastically, give an example of my team, you know, you turn around a couple of months ago and said, can you stop calling me out the blue?

It is doing my head in, you know, I, I cannot get a moment of, um, I suppose presence or go back to presence when you're calling me continually. And it was my job to sort of look at that from the outside and say, What do my staff want from me? They want a consistent schedule where I fit in around their workload and support them, not distract them.

And I think again, that recognition to step back and say, how do we align our calendars? How do I work to support you? It goes back to that core principle of always putting the customer first in. Maybe segue a bit more into digital. We've got to be so careful. I feel like as industry leaders, as brand leaders within the FMCG space to make sure that decisions that we're making are not short sighted, we're using ABCD thinking to say, look, if we automate, I think, look, if we segue into AI, it's a really, really feel like standout piece.

And this always put yourself in the customer's shoes. So.

We explored AI at Grenade for customer experience. I want to deliver the best possible customer experience because one benefits the customer and putting myself in their shoes, but also it benefits me in terms of efficiency and where I deploy my team's resource.

Now you look at. Banking apps, for example, you look at car insurance providers. They're not putting themselves in the customer's shoes. Let's be totally honest. You know, I give an example. I, I purchased, I thought I purchased some aftershave in Paris six months ago. Okay. Transaction didn't go through embarrassingly.

I walked out the shop thinking, hold on a second, my bank balance can definitely get this, uh, can definitely get this fragrance. The shopper told me it's not gone through, but I'm seeing it on my bank statement. I need some help. I'm a customer now. I go on the bank, uh, Barclays Banking Portal and ping him multiple messages back and forth.

Can someone just give me a hand? Can you just block this transaction? You know, at this point, panicking a little bit because I don't want to get my card blocked. I'm also thinking, well, I don't want to just make off because I go home in two days. These guys are just pushing me to an FAQs page, which is an automated bot.

They're not putting themselves in the customer's shoes. You know, why are they

doing that? Why are they pushing yourself to the automated FAQ page? Let's

go a little deeper. So as we go deeper, and this goes into my sort of decision making the process of Grenade and AI is I purely think they're doing it because it's more efficient for them.

They save time and money on resource, and it's more efficient from a profitability perspective. You know, you look at some of these AI companies and ticketing audits they do, don't get me wrong, AI is fascinating. We, we've got to, I suppose. integrate with technology to keep up and deliver the best experience, but we should never let that take away the humanistic approach.

So as we go further, I think that Barclays profitability at the core heart, you know, stakeholders sat around the table saying, how do we maximize efficiency? How do we maximize profitability? People out. Serve a customer purpose, but don't do it wholeheartedly. This works for us. I think that grenade the decision we made when we, we have implemented AI, but we've implemented it to a sort of 20 percent scale at the moment.

Okay. And the rationale was, we had an audit on our customer experience, um, portal, and we, we realized 60 percent of our customer tickets could be answered through automation. So I think if we cross adjacent and go into the Barclays mentality and think, well, Okay. Suddenly you could half the resource in the CX, you know, that that's where maybe the profit driven rather than people thinking would come in what we recognize this grenade or what I recognize, I suppose was, well, how do we then give more back to the customer?

How do we put ourself in the customer's shoes? And this has created a spider's web, look, we're serving at 25 percent efficiency on the tickets we've integrated. But now I'm, I'm challenging the customer experience team to say, cause how do we put ourselves in their shoes and deliver something that is.

Suppose more efficient to the customer. Yes. One time response. They're getting a quick response to queries they need. How do we then add value? Do we have a WhatsApp group where we directly contact customers? Do we have a top X amount of customers get gold tier where when a sale's coming in, we tell them first.

When we want to release a brand book, we tell them first, whatever that might be. And I think it's just so important going back to the initial sentiment, presence in your decision making, putting yourself in the customer's shoes. We'll allow that, um, that level up of look to make it more efficient for the customer put yourself in their shoes.

But how do we then deliver more value and not take that back ourselves? Yeah,

I mean, I totally get, I totally get the sentiment. It's, it's probably more just the how.

I mean, so when it comes to putting yourself in custom shoes, there are many different types of shoes. You go for brogues, you go sneakers.

You know, size eights or size tens, you know, you've got some crocs under here, which I should never admit. Um, there are so many different types of shoes. So in your example, someone might want a WhatsApp group. Someone might want an FAQs. You don't answer the phone. Because, forgive me Cam, how old are you?

I'm 25. You're a

baby. Are you Gen Z or Millennial?

I am Gen Z, just about. Right,

okay. Well, I think not answering your phone is a very Millennial trait. So you might have an old head. Somewhat a wise head on some young shoulders. Um, I also don't answer my phone. That is my preference. Because, like you, I believe in focus creating impact.

So, my question, I guess, is how do you cater for so many different types of

shoes? It's a great question. It's a great question. And I think to your point, there's not a, there's not a one fits all approach. And I go back to the Barclays model. Unless, um, I was in a premium tier, I'm sure I would, I wouldn't get something back.

And I, I think what we need to recognize is almost to your point, everyone's got a different journey. So, Famous, um, almost journey map. And I think it's, it's around buying your reference trainers, a white pair of trainers. And you've got these multiple different webs of someone might go on, view it on Google shopping, have a little think, read runner's world top 10 articles and say, don't quite like that.

Do you like that? Make their purchase decision. And they might be persuaded by final email that comes in their inbox at half nine on a Sunday evening saying the trainers that you like. Are on sale. We know they like them because we are using data to leverage that customer experience. But to your point, with delivering an experience that's tailored to them, I think I go back to how, how do we do that?

Mm-Hmm. We've got to use better data responsibly, but we've also got to ask the customer. I think that's a really important part, is not forgetting. We, we, ironically, a couple of days ago, did a survey to our, our loyal customers. We asked them a few, a few questions, just said, look, why do you like shopping here?

What do you enjoy about it? What do you not enjoy about it? The results are, obviously some of them are confidential, but the results were 90 percent what I would have expected. But those 10 percent golden nuggets, David, to your point, say we're not playing in this area, but our customer wants us to. Let's, let's deliver a different experience to them.

And I think to your point, ask them the questions, but use data to leverage, because I think that there's probably another side to that where you've heard the expression, he who shouts the loudest often gets heard. You've got to really watch that that does not lead you on a spider's web where you're in the smallest of segments doing the most for them.

Because then you go back to business objectives and you think we're not actually putting ourselves in the customer's shoes. We're putting ourselves in. A customer shoes, which is very difficult. So it's getting

both right. Feels hard, doesn't it? Feels bloody hard. Very hard. You know when you start to talk about it.

Um, I, it's, it's also not like he who shouts the loudest. I also think it's a case of the, you know, the Henry J. Ford quote, if I, if I asked what people would have wanted, they would have said faster horses. And it is trying to understand asking an explicit question, you might get an answer that doesn't That isn't the true sentiment of what it is that they actually want.

Because sometimes customers don't know what they want. Sometimes customers are so, uh, paralyzed by the stereotypes that are already out there. Oh, Amazon do this. I shop with Amazon every day. That's probably what I want. When in reality, that might not be it. We might need to go a couple levels deep to understand that they want that.

I think you said humanification. I don't know if that's a word, if I'm honest, Cam, but we'll go

with it. I think I tried to go for humanistic. I may have, I may have not Is

humanistic a word though?

I'm afraid to say it might not be. Maybe we've just invented one.

Relating to the characteristic of the Renaissance.

Okay,

we can go for it. Hopefully it makes sense. Hopefully it makes sense. But I think, yeah, mate, to your point there, I think it's them putting yourself in the customer shoes. We use Amazon as an example and, um, you know, I worked with Amazon for seven years at my old place. Amazon are very much a volume driven business, you know, they want to squeeze the most and to be fair, deliver the best experience to the customer with maybe a business compromise at heart.

Yeah, it can be quite difficult to get across what you require as a business to Amazon. Always taking yourself outside. I'm just going to close my curtains for a second. Go for it. Slightly blind. Look at you wearing

the merch as well. I love it. Got to,

got to show. I like it. Um, but yeah, it's putting yourself in that position.

Yeah. Go on Amazon, put everything that you've got from Amazon as you'd order as an Amazon customer in your basket, compare that to your basket. You know, you put, put them both side by side. You've got this fallacy with curries and whatnot. They're all selling the same TVs. They're all, they're all intending to do the same thing, but I'll go with someone that's considered my opinion or added value in the checkout.

So we're struggling to sell pressure cookers at my old place of all things. You've got this Amazon checkout and this pressure cook is 140 quid, and bear in mind you're competing against Ninja, um, 20 and 1. You know, they can dehydrate, they can do whatever things you don't even want them to do, they can do.

And you're blooming heck, you're already up against it. Then go to the checkout on my, my website at the time. Right, we're a hundred quid more and there's nothing else. So at the moment I'm Amazon, fast and free, Prime's flashing up everywhere. Do I want to become a member and have 20 million? They don't do loyalty points, but 20 million free deliveries.

Yeah, it's chucking everything at me. I think in that moment, it goes back to put yourself in the customer's shoes and say, What could we plunk in that checkout that's beneficial to the customer? You know, for Grenade it could be a fitness plan from a renowned influencer. Is that what they want?

Potentially it's three fitness plans. You select them. That's, that's value Amazon can't give. My old place, it was a simple pressure cooker guide that was a Look, let's price correctly, let's play in that space, but we don't want to go like this to the bottom. We want to add value from the ground up and give customers what they need.

Recognize there is a bit of a, how do pressure cookers work? Are they safe? What's the heritage? Let's add this in your basket, let's give you value and give you the answers to your questions, as well as when you look at that to your reference, David, Amazon versus website. I can't get this pressure cooker guide on Amazon.

I can't get, and I think it's adding value and experience. You cannot get elsewhere. And I guess that's putting yourself in the customer's shoes. You, you don't want to BS your customer. Cause I think that's where the slippery slope starts to come in.

Yeah, I love that. Well, look, I, I'm going to try and close it off here.

I think I've learned a lot. I actually really enjoyed the part of the conversation that spoke more about you, Cameron, um, about your, your values, it felt like a therapy session, you know, I should have laid down on the couch here, um, but about your values, about being more present, being more focused, um, empathetic is what I heard, being slightly more emotionally intelligent, I loved your phone story, I guess maybe like a closing statement from you, what are the, what are the things you're looking at doing in 2024?

As either you or Grenade to match those values, to try and understand those perhaps on the other side of the screen a little bit better. What's, what's the forefront of your mind for 2024?

I think it's, it's making sure we understand the customer better. And I think that shows through our technological innovations.

The start of the year was very much, how do we cast the net out? How do we ask questions? Provoke whether what we're doing technically is the right thing for the customer. We absolutely know due to the survey results, that's where we should be playing. So last year we did another survey and we realized the website, the front end facing piece, it's not right for new customers at the moment.

We want to acquire, we want to drive new customers, but at the moment we're very much by a product. We'll be launching a new UX, um, so completely different interface front end in the next four weeks. And that will be very much telling you about Grenade's story, Grenade as a brand, where we came from, why, why you would shop with us, what customers think about us.

To give that we're a trusted source for a good product, but this is why, you know, this is what customers are telling you. This is not what we're telling you. This is what customers are telling you. So we we've got that in the pipeline. We've also, um, just signed off, um, a CD P X. I cannot for the life of me remember what the X stands for, but it's a customer data platform.

And again, what that will allow us to do, not in a creepy sense, is just understand what the customers want, what they engage with, and how we then facilitate that in terms of front end experience, communications, you know, to your point, maybe you don't like answering the phone, David, what we want to do is then say, You like an app on your phone, and you like that to pop up every six weeks to tell you about fitness plans.

Could even be the weather. I don't know what that looks like, but tailoring comes. to where the customer is. So CD P X will come in. And last but not least, we will have a new app as well. So we, we realized that wow, you're going for it. The three big, we are, we, we've got the full hog. So 70 to 80 percent of our customers and our shopping via mobile real recognition piece for us to say, let's go where they are.

Cause that will make their lives a lot easier. It's a nice and simple, you know, what's the rationale for the projects. The customer's there, so we should be there. So yeah, to be honest, everything that we're doing this year is very much stabilizing for the future but setting up the right tech stack after earning the right last year with a big NPD, turbo charging website growth to say how do we build for the future with the customer at heart?

Put a bit of outlay and now to benefit the customer in the long run. So that's exactly what we're doing. And hopefully it ties into where putting myself in the customer's shoes. We'll see in the long run, eh?

I love it, man.

Well, look, thank you so much for your time. Uh, really enjoyed the chat as usual. I, I actually don't know whether I do want you to lose tomorrow.

Uh, cause I think Newcastle is slightly above us, but, uh, I, so it's, I'm going for a draw, uh, considering we're recording this on the 1st of March, let's put on in our

productions now. I'm

going, I'm going 2 all. Think it'll be a chaotic game. What do you think?

I like 2 all. If Kunyu wasn't injured, I would have maybe said we creep in a little 3 2.

Um, I'm gonna go for a snooze first. I'm gonna go for 0 0.

Okay. 0 0, 2 all. Let's come back in a few weeks when this is published and see where we're up to. Cameron, have

a good day. Perfect. Great to catch up, Dave. Been a pleasure. See you later, buddy.

There we have it. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, subscribe and share on whatever platform it is that you're listening to on today. This show comes from the team behind Made With Intent, the customer intent platform for retailers. If you are of course, interested in being more profitable, whilst being more personal.

And please feel free to check us out at madewithintent. ai. Thanks again for listening and joining us on our mission to change how eCommerce sees, measures, and treats their customers. I've been your host, David Mannheim. Have a great day.